I have a question. What is the secondary gain I am enjoying if I were aware of the pain point, but I choose to keep digging in and escalate the pain, rubbing salt in the wound?
I just posted a long bit that might help answer some of the question. My cycle of anger/shame/relief/fear points our some of the things one thinks or feels one can avoid by not doing the work of humble self-knowledge. But of course, one repeats it.
Chuck, I'm looking forward to finding that comment and reading it.
Julia, to add to what Chuck has said here, the secondary gain is often very short term, and even a matter of immediate gratification, while the long-term effects are damaging. A momentary sense of being in control. Not having to feel vulnerable right now. The continued hope that perhaps this way of reacting will finally get through. The preference for hurting over being hurt. The intoxicating certainty that you are right. And above all, a transient sense of safety.
Chuck, How do we get a copy of that post, please?? TY
I apologize for asking you to repost something that was posted ealier on the thread. I even went to your Taking Moral Action site hoping it was there. Not sure how I didn’t get to the bottom of all the posts. Thank you for your effort. My request was sincere, and I could have researched more 🧐
It does live somewhere in the long list of comments on this post. But your convenience, I will repost it here:
Kelly,
Thanks for this. It surfaces a process that requires some serious intra-personal skill. I will get a little academic then return to the personal :-). Here is a passage from the Moral Formation chapter in our book "Taking Moral Action:"
"Weinstein, Przybylski, and Ryan (2013) propose three integrative characteristics of self-regulation that sound suspiciously like the understanding of humility present in our traditional accounts: (1) conscious access to one’s emotions, motivations, and values; (2) taking responsibility for one’s emotions, decisions, and thoughts; and (3) non-defensiveness in response to challenge." Huff & Furchert, p. 254.
1, 2, & 3, above are stuff you gotta learn. And it is not stuff your parents taught you (or at least mine). We were a "stiff upper lip" family with occasional bursts of anger... I have a tremendous difficulty trying to parse what emotion I am "really" feeling. In part because, as in your example, some related but masking emotion is covering it up (and of course, there is always the shame after the anger, and the relief after the shame dies down, and then the avoidance and fear of return this brings, etc. etc.). Then I calm down and don't have access anymore and would rather not "go there." Your 3 bullet layer system makes it seem obvious, but I expect you could give us a clue about how much work it is to get from the first to the second bullet (or even to recognize the first...). Knowing that there is a "bottom" where insight occurs is helpful motivation to try. And though I have recognized that little child in the bottom bullet some time ago, I am still swimming around down there when I find enough courage... The shallow version of depth psychology makes it sound like achieving insight is just an "ah ha!" moment. So I might feel like I have done a lot of work (and I have) it still might not look that way to others.
But you give me courage that one can do this, if you keep plugging away. My thanks for your self-disclosure, kindness, and wisdom.
This definitely gives me hope and encouragement! A single pain point of mine, is way easier to work with and bring healing to than influencing, fixing or controlling other people’s stuff. Thanks!
I am seriously encouraged with this reflection. I've been doing some 'shadow boxing', staying curious about the when and how of my projections on others. Learning about pain points and practicing pivot brings greater clarity. Interestingly, practicing pivot brings less sorrow then 'shadow boxing'...not sure why.
What a fantastic observation, Cynthia: in many ways, it is shadowboxing by another name, yet that other name makes it feel lighter. I wonder if "shadowboxing" has some shame inherent in it, whereas practicing this pivot feels like healing and growth?
It could be shame. But it could also be humiliation which reminds me of Henri Nouwen's statement, "It takes a lot of humiliation to get just a little bit of humility." Pivot is about agency and is forward looking. I think both concepts can involve humility with pivot avoiding the shame.
You have distilled my behavior into an explanation I can work with. Through the presentations and discussions, I feel encouraged that I can identify when I am triggered. Also, it isn't "them"; it's something within me. I'm learning to comfort the little girl within.
The practice to change is challenging. Yet, I know the benefits of improved relationships are worth the struggle.
Thank you for your map. I find it's a helpful path.
“You can simplify the solution to your triggers by seeing the pattern in your pain rather than the problems with your people.” I love the way you put this. It’s so clear, and the language is very helpful! The metaphor of the river is also very powerful for me, especially that we do have the ability to step out of its current when we recognize the pattern in action. Thanks for this!
This is such a fabulous question, Kelley. My wife says we should do a whole Human Hour training on it.
My answer is at least threefold. First, I don't think there is a correct frequency, it is dependent upon the situation around you and inside of you. Second, it will do us little good to share it if the other isn't open to it. So you can ask that very question. "Would you be open to hearing what's going on inside of me right now?" If the answer is not a genuine yes, then you will need to find another way through the moment. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I've learned to only share this kind of thing if I am not needing anything in return. In other words, if I'm sharing it to get a particular response, it is not really vulnerability, it's a subtle manipulation.
Yes! Situational awareness matters. Take a beat and stay curious 🧐. Seems it would always be okay to share with yourself and in safety and integrity in the right circumstances (in the moment or even later). Your question is terrific. Thank you!
“Would you be open to hearing what's going on inside of me right now?"
Agreed, Kelley. That's probably one of the reasons therapy can be so helpful. It's a place where you can always share these things with yourself in safety and integrity, as you say. Glad the question is helpful!
I have a thought/question: "If I treat my people like my problem, I'll just make my loneliness worse." I get that. I feel that, having done so many times. But if your (my) pain point has to do with performing perfectly, how do you keep the learning process of pivoting from becoming yet another measurement of either succeeding or failing to be "perfect"? It seems you need to also be aware that pivoting is not another performance project.
Brenda, this is such a powerful insight you have shared. It's essential to be aware of: So much spiritual work is really just spiritual bypassing: it's not learning to be imperfect, it's trying to change in order to be perfect, which is not really change at all.
If my coach/spiritual director has one purpose that I've hired him for, it's to show me my blindspot when I am doing this.
"Pivoting is not just another performance project." That's pure gold.
This entire trigger concept has been so helpful to me. What I was taken by in this post is how you reacted after each trigger ... the need to blame the person on the other end of the trigger ... finding blame elsewhere, and definitely NOT with you. Is that the perfection part? I have spent a lifetime trying to blame others for these moments ... and not taking responsibility for my own inability to acknowledge that person (child) inside who is triggered by the issues. The Peaceful Pivot Process allows me to do so ... recognize the commonality among the triggers. The "enemy" is me!
I could relate to all that you said here. I guess for me, instead of using the word "enemy" (although I think I can understand why you used it) for me it's more helpful to think of the little girl within me as it then helps me to have more compassion for myself, which motivates me more to keep wanting to improve and take responsibility for my actions and not keep blaming others. Maybe it's just me, but I am more motivated by self-compassion than by self-blaming.
Jenny, I love this. The "enemy" is within, and they aren't really an enemy at all, but our oldest friend. Don't look now, but that might leave us with no enemies at all. 😊
Pat, I'm so glad to hear this whole less triggered conversation has been helpful to you. To answer your question, I think our tendency to focus on others is multiply determined. Yes, there is definitely the perfectionism of not wanting to be wrong, because we fear that will be grounds for rejection and banishment. However, there is also the fact that we are over reliant on our five senses which are always outward facing, rather than our sixth sense which is inward facing. Also, our whole nervous system is designed to manage threats from outside. It's only our awareness that can be trained to turn that attention inward. Hopefully, that's what the peaceful pivot process teaches us to do. So in other words, grace upon grace as you seek to turn that attention inward in your triggered moments, your whole biology is working against that!
I am learning to use my voice in a regulated way and recovering from people pleasing. I feel like I have trained my people to disrespect me. It is hard to learn to ask for something for myself. My habit is to see that as selfish, but not see the disrespect as someone else’s selfishness.
Gayla, I'm so happy to hear that this process is coming alongside you in the personal growth you've already been working on consistently and deeply. I can't tell you how many times I hear that word "selfish" as people get emotionally and spiritually healthier. It has been the single biggest hurdle for me to overcome in the journey toward relational health. Ironically. 😊
That's spot on, as well, Catherine. Once you really truly see the hurting little child in yourself, it becomes quite natural to see the child in everyone else as well.
Kelly, every time I read your essays, especially recently, I feel renewed in my resolve toward building narrative empathy--and in modeling it, too. I believe empathy can be taught. What you wrote here about "seeing the pattern in your pain rather than the problems with your people," I thought how succinctly you summarized where every one of us can begin: with ourselves. We can't change others, but we can change ourselves. And that's where we start. Thank you for this gem!
"Narrative empathy." It's the first time I've heard those two words put together, and I absolutely love that phrase, Jeannie. It's a great way to describe what we are doing here in the second part of the peaceful pivot process. Once you can develop narrative empathy for yourself, you can begin to extend it to others in the third part: get connected. I have a feeling you are going to be hearing me using that phrase from time to time, thank you! 🙏
Been wondering lately why we don't train for trigger points? We train for a lot of desired outcomes. Fighters train to take a blow without losing consciousness or control. That means not getting triggered in oversimplified terms.
Why don't I ever hear about training to respond more wisely when triggered? I mean, I imagine this exists in some format, and I've just not heard of it. I can't be the first to think of it.
Folks put a lot of pressure on going to the gym, meditation, and breathwork to solve this, but I'm skeptical any of them has much effect when triggered. I certainly have the good intentions of "getting curious" when I feel triggered, but... [HAHA] No way, man. Switch flipped. Now I need space.
I agree with your assessment that we need this kind of training but sadly, I think it doesn't happen because our society has many issues with still just admitting mental issues and emotional difficulties. I'm not saying this is a mental illness, but when it comes to emotions and having anything that might even slightly show some kind of perceived "weakness", so many would rather run the other way.
It is definitely countercultural, Jenny! By definition, all deep change is countercultural, I think. The culture is designed for homeostasis. It never changes from the top down, only the bottom up, one individual at a time. When you work this process, you are a part of changing culture!
Yes, exactly, Damon! Wasn't it Mike Tyson who said everyone has a plan until they get punched? It's the truest thing about our triggered moments: in them we quit living, according to our plan, which is our highest values, deepest connection, and most mature life. Why in the world don't we train for these triggered moments? Grateful to have you here, training with us, my friend!
I should flag, I'm not just being hypothetical or cute (although I'm always doing the latter to some extent, dang it). I mean, I train for everything else, body, mind, Spanish competency, and even my Mexican citizenship.
Who we are is a complicated concept, but if it's mostly about what we do, and what we do is what we practice (not all the neat ideas we hope to one day make time for), then I would be wise to train for this.
A friend of mine recently trained with a fight instructor on how to take very hard face hits without losing emotional control. Not my interest, but it certainly implies a template.
Yet a fighter makes a choice to put themselves in the position to give and receive blows, and trains well for both. Is that choice conscious...or unconsciously made? Is it likely they are fighting battles unbeknownst even to themselves? Likely. But I digressed, the training point is valid to me.
Wow. I have a friendship relationship where this has been occurring and it's been incredibly stressful. My chest aches and my nervous system is fried.
I know some of the reasons behind it but this article really took me to much deeper, clearer understanding. Thank you!
It also taught me why I sink more into depression with my own triggers because of what people's communication, aggression and passive aggressive behavior "means" to me, those raw pain points that send me spiraling emotionally, psychologically and physically.
Wow, I really appreciate this vulnerable share. We do so often think of romantic relationships when it comes to being triggered, but the truth is any relationship that stirs up our pain point can get stuck in a pattern of triggers. I hope you can continue to build on this insight and find a new way of showing up to those moments!
I have a question. What is the secondary gain I am enjoying if I were aware of the pain point, but I choose to keep digging in and escalate the pain, rubbing salt in the wound?
Julia,
I just posted a long bit that might help answer some of the question. My cycle of anger/shame/relief/fear points our some of the things one thinks or feels one can avoid by not doing the work of humble self-knowledge. But of course, one repeats it.
Chuck, I'm looking forward to finding that comment and reading it.
Julia, to add to what Chuck has said here, the secondary gain is often very short term, and even a matter of immediate gratification, while the long-term effects are damaging. A momentary sense of being in control. Not having to feel vulnerable right now. The continued hope that perhaps this way of reacting will finally get through. The preference for hurting over being hurt. The intoxicating certainty that you are right. And above all, a transient sense of safety.
Does that begin to answer your question?
Thank you very much.
Chuck, How do we get a copy of that post, please?? TY
I apologize for asking you to repost something that was posted ealier on the thread. I even went to your Taking Moral Action site hoping it was there. Not sure how I didn’t get to the bottom of all the posts. Thank you for your effort. My request was sincere, and I could have researched more 🧐
Heather,
It does live somewhere in the long list of comments on this post. But your convenience, I will repost it here:
Kelly,
Thanks for this. It surfaces a process that requires some serious intra-personal skill. I will get a little academic then return to the personal :-). Here is a passage from the Moral Formation chapter in our book "Taking Moral Action:"
"Weinstein, Przybylski, and Ryan (2013) propose three integrative characteristics of self-regulation that sound suspiciously like the understanding of humility present in our traditional accounts: (1) conscious access to one’s emotions, motivations, and values; (2) taking responsibility for one’s emotions, decisions, and thoughts; and (3) non-defensiveness in response to challenge." Huff & Furchert, p. 254.
1, 2, & 3, above are stuff you gotta learn. And it is not stuff your parents taught you (or at least mine). We were a "stiff upper lip" family with occasional bursts of anger... I have a tremendous difficulty trying to parse what emotion I am "really" feeling. In part because, as in your example, some related but masking emotion is covering it up (and of course, there is always the shame after the anger, and the relief after the shame dies down, and then the avoidance and fear of return this brings, etc. etc.). Then I calm down and don't have access anymore and would rather not "go there." Your 3 bullet layer system makes it seem obvious, but I expect you could give us a clue about how much work it is to get from the first to the second bullet (or even to recognize the first...). Knowing that there is a "bottom" where insight occurs is helpful motivation to try. And though I have recognized that little child in the bottom bullet some time ago, I am still swimming around down there when I find enough courage... The shallow version of depth psychology makes it sound like achieving insight is just an "ah ha!" moment. So I might feel like I have done a lot of work (and I have) it still might not look that way to others.
But you give me courage that one can do this, if you keep plugging away. My thanks for your self-disclosure, kindness, and wisdom.
-Chuck
THank you. I love the simplification bulletin points of the tasks 1-3 and I heartily agree. And it is a journey for trues! Blessings..
Appreciate you two supporting each other in this way!
This definitely gives me hope and encouragement! A single pain point of mine, is way easier to work with and bring healing to than influencing, fixing or controlling other people’s stuff. Thanks!
I'm thrilled to hear that, Susan! And you're right on: with this shift, you are focused on changing the one thing you can directly change...yourself.
I am seriously encouraged with this reflection. I've been doing some 'shadow boxing', staying curious about the when and how of my projections on others. Learning about pain points and practicing pivot brings greater clarity. Interestingly, practicing pivot brings less sorrow then 'shadow boxing'...not sure why.
What a fantastic observation, Cynthia: in many ways, it is shadowboxing by another name, yet that other name makes it feel lighter. I wonder if "shadowboxing" has some shame inherent in it, whereas practicing this pivot feels like healing and growth?
It could be shame. But it could also be humiliation which reminds me of Henri Nouwen's statement, "It takes a lot of humiliation to get just a little bit of humility." Pivot is about agency and is forward looking. I think both concepts can involve humility with pivot avoiding the shame.
I can get on board with that, and pretty much anything Henri Nouwen. 😊
Fabulous Dr. Kelly,
You have distilled my behavior into an explanation I can work with. Through the presentations and discussions, I feel encouraged that I can identify when I am triggered. Also, it isn't "them"; it's something within me. I'm learning to comfort the little girl within.
The practice to change is challenging. Yet, I know the benefits of improved relationships are worth the struggle.
Thank you for your map. I find it's a helpful path.
Carol, I particularly appreciate two things about what you've shared here.
"I'm learning to comfort the little girl within." That is the essence of so much emotional intelligence, distilled down into a simple sentence.
And then you're acknowledgment that it's a practice and take some work. I appreciate you and your willingness to do that work!
I love this, thank you! It was a definite "aha moment"!
I'm glad to hear it resonated with you, Nancy!
“You can simplify the solution to your triggers by seeing the pattern in your pain rather than the problems with your people.” I love the way you put this. It’s so clear, and the language is very helpful! The metaphor of the river is also very powerful for me, especially that we do have the ability to step out of its current when we recognize the pattern in action. Thanks for this!
That's the phrase that resonated with me the most, too, Cheri!
Cheri and Jeannie, I appreciate those votes of confidence on that phrase! I will be sure then to make sure it gets into the book!
Cheri, be sure to have grace for yourself as you are learning to step out of that river, its current can be like quicksand!
So good! Question-how often do you share your insight around the triggered moment with the other person?
I tend to share more when I have "blown it". Not as an excuse but as part of an apology for my behavior.
Love this, Brenda.
This is such a fabulous question, Kelley. My wife says we should do a whole Human Hour training on it.
My answer is at least threefold. First, I don't think there is a correct frequency, it is dependent upon the situation around you and inside of you. Second, it will do us little good to share it if the other isn't open to it. So you can ask that very question. "Would you be open to hearing what's going on inside of me right now?" If the answer is not a genuine yes, then you will need to find another way through the moment. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I've learned to only share this kind of thing if I am not needing anything in return. In other words, if I'm sharing it to get a particular response, it is not really vulnerability, it's a subtle manipulation.
Does that help?
Yes! Situational awareness matters. Take a beat and stay curious 🧐. Seems it would always be okay to share with yourself and in safety and integrity in the right circumstances (in the moment or even later). Your question is terrific. Thank you!
“Would you be open to hearing what's going on inside of me right now?"
Agreed, Kelley. That's probably one of the reasons therapy can be so helpful. It's a place where you can always share these things with yourself in safety and integrity, as you say. Glad the question is helpful!
I have a thought/question: "If I treat my people like my problem, I'll just make my loneliness worse." I get that. I feel that, having done so many times. But if your (my) pain point has to do with performing perfectly, how do you keep the learning process of pivoting from becoming yet another measurement of either succeeding or failing to be "perfect"? It seems you need to also be aware that pivoting is not another performance project.
Brenda, this is such a powerful insight you have shared. It's essential to be aware of: So much spiritual work is really just spiritual bypassing: it's not learning to be imperfect, it's trying to change in order to be perfect, which is not really change at all.
If my coach/spiritual director has one purpose that I've hired him for, it's to show me my blindspot when I am doing this.
"Pivoting is not just another performance project." That's pure gold.
This entire trigger concept has been so helpful to me. What I was taken by in this post is how you reacted after each trigger ... the need to blame the person on the other end of the trigger ... finding blame elsewhere, and definitely NOT with you. Is that the perfection part? I have spent a lifetime trying to blame others for these moments ... and not taking responsibility for my own inability to acknowledge that person (child) inside who is triggered by the issues. The Peaceful Pivot Process allows me to do so ... recognize the commonality among the triggers. The "enemy" is me!
I could relate to all that you said here. I guess for me, instead of using the word "enemy" (although I think I can understand why you used it) for me it's more helpful to think of the little girl within me as it then helps me to have more compassion for myself, which motivates me more to keep wanting to improve and take responsibility for my actions and not keep blaming others. Maybe it's just me, but I am more motivated by self-compassion than by self-blaming.
Jenny, I love this. The "enemy" is within, and they aren't really an enemy at all, but our oldest friend. Don't look now, but that might leave us with no enemies at all. 😊
Pat, I'm so glad to hear this whole less triggered conversation has been helpful to you. To answer your question, I think our tendency to focus on others is multiply determined. Yes, there is definitely the perfectionism of not wanting to be wrong, because we fear that will be grounds for rejection and banishment. However, there is also the fact that we are over reliant on our five senses which are always outward facing, rather than our sixth sense which is inward facing. Also, our whole nervous system is designed to manage threats from outside. It's only our awareness that can be trained to turn that attention inward. Hopefully, that's what the peaceful pivot process teaches us to do. So in other words, grace upon grace as you seek to turn that attention inward in your triggered moments, your whole biology is working against that!
I am learning to use my voice in a regulated way and recovering from people pleasing. I feel like I have trained my people to disrespect me. It is hard to learn to ask for something for myself. My habit is to see that as selfish, but not see the disrespect as someone else’s selfishness.
This process helps.
Gayla, I'm so happy to hear that this process is coming alongside you in the personal growth you've already been working on consistently and deeply. I can't tell you how many times I hear that word "selfish" as people get emotionally and spiritually healthier. It has been the single biggest hurdle for me to overcome in the journey toward relational health. Ironically. 😊
That is so helpful. Sometimes I feel like pulling out the crazy is like getting gum out of my hair.
Perfect metaphor! My original blog was named "UnTangled." 😊
Also the lie that spending time on creative endeavors = selfish and unproductive.
There is a peculiar overlap in what adds beauty to the world and what is deemed selfish.
Spot on. I think the whole world must be full of adults with hurting little boys and little girls inside.
That's spot on, as well, Catherine. Once you really truly see the hurting little child in yourself, it becomes quite natural to see the child in everyone else as well.
Kelly, every time I read your essays, especially recently, I feel renewed in my resolve toward building narrative empathy--and in modeling it, too. I believe empathy can be taught. What you wrote here about "seeing the pattern in your pain rather than the problems with your people," I thought how succinctly you summarized where every one of us can begin: with ourselves. We can't change others, but we can change ourselves. And that's where we start. Thank you for this gem!
"Narrative empathy." It's the first time I've heard those two words put together, and I absolutely love that phrase, Jeannie. It's a great way to describe what we are doing here in the second part of the peaceful pivot process. Once you can develop narrative empathy for yourself, you can begin to extend it to others in the third part: get connected. I have a feeling you are going to be hearing me using that phrase from time to time, thank you! 🙏
I’m so glad you like the phrase, Kelly, and yes, please use it! :)
I will always credit you!
I know you will, Kelly. :)
Been wondering lately why we don't train for trigger points? We train for a lot of desired outcomes. Fighters train to take a blow without losing consciousness or control. That means not getting triggered in oversimplified terms.
Why don't I ever hear about training to respond more wisely when triggered? I mean, I imagine this exists in some format, and I've just not heard of it. I can't be the first to think of it.
Folks put a lot of pressure on going to the gym, meditation, and breathwork to solve this, but I'm skeptical any of them has much effect when triggered. I certainly have the good intentions of "getting curious" when I feel triggered, but... [HAHA] No way, man. Switch flipped. Now I need space.
For my training partners, I pick my mother and my wife. What time and where are we training, Kelly?
I agree with your assessment that we need this kind of training but sadly, I think it doesn't happen because our society has many issues with still just admitting mental issues and emotional difficulties. I'm not saying this is a mental illness, but when it comes to emotions and having anything that might even slightly show some kind of perceived "weakness", so many would rather run the other way.
It is definitely countercultural, Jenny! By definition, all deep change is countercultural, I think. The culture is designed for homeostasis. It never changes from the top down, only the bottom up, one individual at a time. When you work this process, you are a part of changing culture!
Yes, exactly, Damon! Wasn't it Mike Tyson who said everyone has a plan until they get punched? It's the truest thing about our triggered moments: in them we quit living, according to our plan, which is our highest values, deepest connection, and most mature life. Why in the world don't we train for these triggered moments? Grateful to have you here, training with us, my friend!
I should flag, I'm not just being hypothetical or cute (although I'm always doing the latter to some extent, dang it). I mean, I train for everything else, body, mind, Spanish competency, and even my Mexican citizenship.
Who we are is a complicated concept, but if it's mostly about what we do, and what we do is what we practice (not all the neat ideas we hope to one day make time for), then I would be wise to train for this.
A friend of mine recently trained with a fight instructor on how to take very hard face hits without losing emotional control. Not my interest, but it certainly implies a template.
Yet a fighter makes a choice to put themselves in the position to give and receive blows, and trains well for both. Is that choice conscious...or unconsciously made? Is it likely they are fighting battles unbeknownst even to themselves? Likely. But I digressed, the training point is valid to me.
Wow. I have a friendship relationship where this has been occurring and it's been incredibly stressful. My chest aches and my nervous system is fried.
I know some of the reasons behind it but this article really took me to much deeper, clearer understanding. Thank you!
It also taught me why I sink more into depression with my own triggers because of what people's communication, aggression and passive aggressive behavior "means" to me, those raw pain points that send me spiraling emotionally, psychologically and physically.
Bravo and thank you greatly.
Wow, I really appreciate this vulnerable share. We do so often think of romantic relationships when it comes to being triggered, but the truth is any relationship that stirs up our pain point can get stuck in a pattern of triggers. I hope you can continue to build on this insight and find a new way of showing up to those moments!
I loved this post. It was so very clear and succinct for me. Bravo again, Kelly! I'm really looking forward to getting your book!
I can't wait for you to read it, Jenny, and hopefully sooner rather than later on the launch team! 😊